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Alexa^^
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OK. welcome to tonight's discussion meeting, loosely titled:
"submission and morality"
anyone want to know why I chose this topic?
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MrEos
|
Yes. Yes!
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Alexa^^
|
well Eos, I could have made it: "slaves/submissives: what's
the difference?" :)
OK. I will tell. it's serious really because almost every sub and slave,
and most dominants who I know, went through a 'guilt' phase or trip and
I figure since we are aiming these talks for now towards beginners it
would be good to share about it so that no one feels alone or that
it--'guilt'--has to be an end of exploration
simple huh? silly most likely, but a good issue I think
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MrEos
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No. A valid issue
Maybe guilt that you are betraying what you have learned
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Alexa^^
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the first point on the topic list is identifying barriers
that can create conflict
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MrEos
|
The first might be accepting that you are a submissive (or,
equally, a Dominant) and have corresponding needs
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jalinata
|
and, after accepting, umm, dealing with the concomitant
contradictions it creates
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MrEos
|
What sort of contradictions, jalinata?
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jalinata
|
well, for me, there was dealing with and finding the balance
between very strong feminist beliefs and activities and incredibly
strong urges towards submission. Basically allowing myself to stop being
dependent on my independence
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MrEos
|
I understand. Even not considering feminism, there is a strong
"push" in our culture towards independence. There is an ideal in our
society of strength and independence without treading on anyone else's
toes
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jalinata
|
true. a number of my dominant male friends have had similar
problems dealing with their *snag*-like personalities and reconciling
their need to dominate
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MrEos
|
Yes. We aren't "supposed" to tell people what to do. And by
wanting to do so we feel conflict with what society has taught us is the
right way
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jalinata
|
mmm... and then, when you go a step further, and realise
that there can actually be a sadistic side to personality it can be
quite a shock, i think, to self-perception
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Alexa^^
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what are some external causes?
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MrEos
|
External causes? Society's expectation is an external cause. Or
family. One's instilled perception of self, eg. I am not a meany but I
do like to whip women :)
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jalinata
|
i think also of the issue of the *smallness* of the
population...
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MrEos
|
"Smallness", jalinata?
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jalinata
|
i find it can be far too easy to be drawn closely to someone
when, often, the key things we have in common are geographic location
and *kink* which--in terms of a long-term submissive relationship--does
NOT work
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MrEos
|
I agree. They don't form a good basis for a partnership
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jalinata
|
yes. and for me to really indulge in my submission it needs
to be on a basis of a relationship
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MrEos
|
Do you then submit to someone incompatible because you have a
deeper need to submit?
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jalinata
|
mmmm. only on a very superficial level. so, for example, at
the moment i spend a weekend every so often with a good friend (who
happens to be Dom) but our ideals on everything else in our lives are
very very far apart.
so, being a practical person at heart, i keep a level of myself
removed--not allowing myself to become too deeply immersed
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MrEos
|
Is it "right" for you while you are with him?
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jalinata
|
it is "right" as long as we do not talk about anything very
serious<g>
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Alexa^^
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so we have job or self-perceptions, and expectations and
status in society, as barriers that create conflict? Let's bring this
back into focus.
would gender or sexuality be a barrier? or has it the potential to be
so?
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jalinata
|
for me these are not a barrier. ideals are, gender not
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MrEos
|
I cannot answer that one. Maybe being submissive and male goes
against the stereotype of a "strong" man? Being submissive and female is
more acceptable, I think. Or perceived to be
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jalinata
|
LOL. depends on the circles you mix in <g>
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Alexa^^
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more 'natural' or socially acceptable. yes, I agree, jal :)
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LordMilz
|
within the BDSM society? or in general, MrEos?
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MrEos
|
In general, but that's where we all start I agree that it's
social-circle-dependent, but we are all influenced by what we see on the
news and hear in school (which was a long time ago)
When a Dom tells you to kneel, and you do--happily, aren't you betraying
a lot of what society has been telling you?
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Alexa^^
|
the reason I put this topic up was in essence to let the
newcomer know that guilt was something almost all of us have been
through--even if just in a small way.
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jalinata
|
in the area of guilt, or umm, *discomfort*, i still remember
the harrowing feelings i had when i finally admitted i WANTED to be
spanked
when i kneel i am not kneeling to a *stereotype*, but to a particular
person who has won my respect
(herein lies the beginnings of my rationalisations) <g>
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MrEos
|
<smiles>
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MrEos
|
But you still kneel. And kneeling is a no-no
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LordMilz
|
why is it a no-no ?
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jalinata
|
it is?
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MrEos
|
Society says that it is a no-no. No-one bows down to anyone
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Alexa^^
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society has attributed submission as a weakness
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MrEos
|
But when we react against what we are "supposed" to to do, it
is like reacting against a parent figure
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jalinata
|
and i always thought that kneeling was just the perfect way
to get my head to a convenient height..<g>
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MrEos
|
jalinata, THAT is an exception <smile>
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PAIN_Mstr
|
Maybe just societal condition over a life-time as to what
we are "supposed" to do, or maybe it is simply strength of inner-being
to be able to break from accepted norms
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MrEos
|
I agree that it requires strength to embrace BDSM internal
needs. I had problems with being a Dom--accepting that my slave(s) are
below me
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jalinata
|
i suspect that i am lucky inasmuch as i have not been overly
influenced by societal norms, though i know that i have had to be a lot
stronger to submit than to not submit
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PAIN_Mstr
|
I personally could never see submission a sign of weakness,
or a true submissive anything but strong
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MrEos
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I agree, PAIN, but I speak from the inside
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Alexa^^
|
These dominant and submissive "needs", if I where a newcomer
how would you tell me what they were? Eos?
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MrEos
|
If you were a newcomer you would have already made the first
step by saying that you were "interested" and not repelled
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Alexa^^
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some ppl are feeling conflict before they even know what
their needs are or can put names to them
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MrEos
|
I agree. It can be frightening to go and seek yourself
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PAIN_Mstr
|
I also feel it can be very scary when the realization hits
a person that they truly enjoy what has been painted as "perverse" or a
"sickness" by all the "normal" ppl around them
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MrEos
|
PAIN, that's an issue to do with coming out. What about coming
out to yourself?
I often think that the most frightening thing in the world, for some
people, would be a mirror that reflects their soul. Many people do not
accept what they are and are frightened by it
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PAIN_Mstr
|
Agreed, but still possibly the conflict of social norms
instilled over time--the young female/male professional who is
submissive but needs to keep up a certain professional image of
strength, might I even say Dominance
The inner questions: is there something wrong with me?
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jalinata
|
it can be very difficult to accept what you are without
trying to ascribe some *meaning* to it
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MrEos
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It needs no meaning. It is who I am
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jalinata
|
I agree with you MrEos though, for me, it has taken time to
give up on the self-analysis <g>
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MrEos
|
I still analyse :)
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Alexa^^
|
going back to moral conflict... LM said earlier: while we are
prepared to accept most things in others it's when we can't accept our
own desires, wants, needs, etc., that we get the most trouble
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MrEos
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Because we cannot walk away from it
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PAIN_Mstr
|
It happens to Dominants also that they question whether
what they do is really "loving" or "tender"...
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MrEos
|
I agree with THAT, PAIN . Very definitely
It took me a fair while to accept myself in that regard
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jalinata
|
Yes, and i think that often the thing is not so much what
you *do* but the way in which you do it--which creates the difference
between loving/tender/sadistic and, umm, basic brutality
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MrEos
|
Is it the way you do them, or the intent behind them?
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jalinata
|
A combination, perhaps?
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PAIN_Mstr
|
Maybe it's good we question a little. Maybe it keeps things
in balance ... yin and yang
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Alexa^^
|
I know a lot of moral issues for my friends have been
religious or upbringing related.
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PAIN_Mstr
|
Heheheheh. I am lucky, no religious issues in CP. I went to
an all male Catholic school. LOL
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PAIN_Mstr
|
I often find it amusing seeing some self-proclaimed
Dominants barking orders--demanding fantasies be acted out--thinking
that is all there is to being a Dom/me with no concern on the overall
effect they have
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Alexa^^
|
Eos, what would you say then to a newcomer struggling through
guilt feelings?
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jalinata
|
Alexa, the person is sub or dom?
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Alexa^^
|
I will say newcomer submissive.
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MrEos
|
I would tell them to talk to others. So that they know that
they are not alone. If they were cute and blond I'd tell them to talk to
me :)
They need to talk mainly, to know that they share with others. Being
alone does not help you feel secure about yourself
You need support
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jalinata
|
and i would suggest they talk a lot to some other
submissives. most of us have gone through various questioning things
over time
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Alexa^^
|
to afford some legitimacy to their needs?
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MrEos
|
Not strictly speaking, but you feel more legitimate doing
something that you perceive as odd when you are doing it with others,
too
It's really good when you talk to others and find that they think the
same way you do
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PAIN_Mstr
|
Sort of makes you feel almost normal <g>
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MrEos
|
Heaven forbid <laughs>
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PAIN_Mstr
|
I do find it interesting that now programs on TV like "Sex
Life" now speak of other forms of touching e.g. spanking as normal
sexual play
but sad that they do not come right out and say: WHATEVER FEELS GOOD is
OK between consenting adults
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MrEos
|
I don't agree with that, Pain. I don't think that it always is
OK
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Alexa^^
|
I think it might be time for a story. would anyone care to
share with us about their first submissive experience? no nitty-gritties
necessarily, just how you thought or felt, what expectations there were,
etc. were these expectations met?
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MrEos
|
My first sub experience was a wild ride emotionally. Lots of
conflict internally
Trying to adapt to a new mindset was the main problem, coupled with not
knowing what to expect and how I would react
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PAIN_Mstr
|
I feel proper communication between partners can overcome
that partly, and by consenting and discussing there should be no
expectations. Even in permanent D/s relationships there are many
variables that effect the outcome--what feels good this time may be
uncomfortable or scary the next
Many things affect our reactions
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MrEos
|
My expectations came from in me
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PAIN_Mstr
|
So you set goals as to what you hoped for Eos ??
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MrEos
|
Goals, no. I thought that I knew what would happen. I was wrong
:)
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PAIN_Mstr
|
Well, we all are wrong at times. the human being is funny
like that; it never reacts as you would expect it to
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MrEos
|
You're not wrong about that <sigh>
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PAIN_Mstr
|
Don't worry. it happens to all of us. Best laid plans of
mice and men and all that, too
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LordMilz
|
maybe the issue of internal conflict or guilt is so personal
that it is too hard to determine how it can be treated or helped. it
depends heavily upon people's perceptions
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MrEos
|
And conditioning
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Alexa^^
|
I thought that too, but I realised that some places are doing
something; like legitimising the 'life-style'--like Janus and TES,
etc.--and by opening doors to association and networking the newcomer
isn't left to "oh, it's bad and sick" perceptions
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PAIN_Mstr
|
Well, I think that is where I came in: no matter how much
you enjoy something lifetime conditioning can have you questioning your
sanity at times
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LordMilz
|
then why do some of us get affected by this "life
conditioning" and some not ?
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PAIN_Mstr
|
Maybe some of us are poor subjects for conditioning. my
teachers always told me I was a lousy student <g>
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Alexa^^
|
I had no 'societal' constraints or religious restraints and I
still felt guilty when I first came in
I was told by shrinks that wanting to submit was just an
'attention-seeking tool' and an 'issue' not a need
some shrinks need shrinking
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MrEos
|
We all have conditioning from family and society. It cannot be
escaped
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Alexa^^
|
I guess it could be society as a whole with its
'conditioning' of strength=dominance, work, home, schools, etc.
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PAIN_Mstr
|
Maybe thats where the guilt comes from; we feel that we are
non-conformists; we do not fit in with the rest of society
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Alexa^^
|
that's quite paradoxical though, Pain, seeing as how BDSM
_could_ be referred back to some 'animal instinct' of sorts
so, in a sense, by adopting societies values we deny our own instincts
I think that we can do more than talk about it though
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MrEos
|
Give workshops
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Alexa^^
|
well, we have a lot of literature available--books and
papers--and we are slowly networking
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MrEos
|
It isn't just in BDSM that we fail to conform. Mr Joe Average
isn't everyone's cup of tea.
Being an individual runs against society's teachings
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PAIN_Mstr
|
Maybe society, in general, is simply scared to show animal
lust and passion--too real for many
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MrEos
|
True. Society fights against animal instincts
But most societies have release "valves" for animal passion and lust,
eg. football
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LordMilz
|
is BDSM always about "animal lust and passion" though? for
some it isn't
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Alexa^^
|
No, I don't think it is either, LM, but for some it is the
essence
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PAIN_Mstr
|
Yes, sadly ppl seem to be heading towards group ideas; no
free thinkers
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Alexa^^
|
meaning, Pain?
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PAIN_Mstr
|
I did not necessarily mean simply that BDSM was about
"animal lust and passion", just it's one way of showing specific
emotions and I agree that it can be many things to many ppl
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jalinata
|
i tend to think that the "lust an wanton passion" elements
are the ones which are readily acceptable. it is the actual
*relationship* elements which become much more difficult to deal with in
many ways
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LordMilz
|
I agree with jal. it is OK to spank someone as long as you
are going to have sex with them--but if they just want a spanking and no
orgasm people think that is strange
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Alexa^^
|
no. I see what you mean, LM. ppl think it OK to have 'kinky
sex' and not be considered BDSMers or weirdos and perverts
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PAIN_Mstr
|
That's what I should have said earlier when I mentioned Sex
Life... glad you said it, Alexa
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Alexa^^
|
[You mean] ownership, jalinata? things like that?
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jalinata
|
yes. obedience, etc. etc.
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PAIN_Mstr
|
I did not know lust and passion equated to sex and orgasm
A kiss can be passionate or simply a token gesture
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sarah_ts
|
Desmond Morris is a highly respected Zoologist in the UK and
wrote a book, I think called the Human Zoo. in it he equated the red
bottom of baboons (red to attract the females) with the spanked human
bottom
do you see the comparison?
I mean if that is so then it is perfectly natural to get "turned on" by
a spanked bottom
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Alexa^^
|
yes I do sarah :)
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PAIN_Mstr
|
To me slapping someone special can be passionate
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LordMilz
|
true, Pain. But that is because we "know"; the vanillas
don't understand
Kinky Sex--with furry handcuffs, spankings and ropes--are fine... if you
actually have SEX
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LordMilz
|
but (to vanillas) having the ropes and chains and
floggings--and no sex--becomes a psychological problem
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PAIN_Mstr
|
Uh oh. what would vanillas say to a sub reaching orgasm
simply from being slapped then?
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LordMilz
|
they would say it is weird
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jalinata
|
... and the jumping up to make a cup of tea whenever your
partner looks thirsty? to me this is the part i find i had difficulty
explaining to friends
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PAIN_Mstr
|
Oh, well. THEIR loss ;-))
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LordMilz
|
but isn't that one of the barriers that needs to be
overcome?
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PAIN_Mstr
|
So your friends could not even see it as simply a
thoughtful act
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LordMilz
|
this link that is being created between sex and BDSM--is it
to make it acceptable to the masses?
my 'free thinking' friends can accept it--but not understand it
|
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Alexa^^
|
dina keeps calling the wrong ppl, "Sir" :) that's a
self-barrier as well.
dina went through the same thing, jal. dina says that she watched
someone else do it for their partner and that showed her how beautiful
it was and didn't make her feel so out of place
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PAIN_Mstr
|
Maybe we should make it more scary for the masses and just
call it "SM" <g>
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sarah_ts
|
they do not have to understand it, just accept it
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LordMilz
|
I think that we should be saying "S&M is OK"--not "S&M is OK
if you link it to sex"
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PAIN_Mstr
|
Well, the Japanese see the Tea ceremony as a symbol of
utmost respect and it is beautiful to watch
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Alexa^^
|
there has been a lot of discussion recently as to whether the
BDSM community will head the same way, politically, as the Gay and
Lesbian community... striving for public acceptance
|
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PAIN_Mstr
|
Yes, I have read a few things about putting a nice
acceptable facade on what we do
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Alexa^^
|
I think that Eos was beginning to. would you like to
continue, Eos?
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MrEos
|
What can I add to what I said?
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sarah_ts
|
what do you mean by first sub experience?
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|
frogaroo
|
my first experience was self bondage :)
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Alexa^^
|
the very first time you submitted to someone else in a BDSM
setting
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sarah_ts
|
I mean, I got caned first time by a prostitute in London,
but I wouldn't call it a sub experience
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Alexa^^
|
OK, how would you clarify a sub experience?
|
|
sarah_ts
|
not sure. that's why I was asking, but if you want I'll tell
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Alexa^^
|
if you feel comfortable yes please:)
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PAIN_Mstr
|
masochistic, maybe, or were you just naughty sarah?
|
|
sarah_ts
|
a bit of both
I had been lucky enough to work as a maid for a Mistress in a pro
establishment. after a couple of months of hinting, she finally lost her
temper and carried out a wish of mine to have my foreskin pierced. she
was angry and grabbed hold of my wrists to cuff them behind my back
I resisted at first, scared of her anger, then I thought, "I trust her
and this is what I wanted..."
I relaxed a bit and let her cuff me. she then attached it to a chain and
pulley and raised my arms above my head. there was no backing out now
and I was actually totally helpless for real. I felt incredibly
powerless as she took my penis firmly in one hand and pierced it with a
needle. that, I think, was my first true submission. very confusing
|
|
Alexa^^
|
how so?
|
|
sarah_ts
|
I had been scared but I should have known there was no
reason to be... but I couldn't have done anything if there had been and
because deep down I trusted her I was totally turned on
I had been whinging about it for weeks, so in the end I had no choice
|
|
Alexa^^
|
agreed. were you confused because you felt you should have
trusted her?
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|
sarah_ts
|
I don't really know and it was so long ago
I think I was confused because I never knew if she was really angry or
it was just for effect
and I was cross with myself for whinging
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|
Alexa^^
|
did you have a safe word or something similar?
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|
sarah_ts
|
no. that was the turn on
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|
PAIN_Mstr
|
Fear can be quite erotic at times
Maybe the confusion came from knowing that it was what you wanted and
yet when it was time you had no control over it
|
|
sarah_ts
|
I knew she was going to hurt me, not fatally or anything
like that, and that there was nothing I could do about it; but I wanted
her to
|
|
Alexa^^
|
dina says that she felt the same as sarah in the sense that
the thought of no control was the turn on, but she had a feeling of 'how
can I want this?' or 'it isn't right to want this'...
|
|
sarah_ts
|
please. who is dina, your sub?
|
|
Alexa^^
|
sorry. dina is my slave and has joined the channel with me
for tonight's meeting
dina smiles and waves hi over my shoulder
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|
Alexa^^
|
we can't remember really how we dealt with it either. it was
long ago... but we did talk and look for options
|
|
PAIN_Mstr
|
I think every sub/slave must go through the, "How can I
want this?", as they lay bound before their owner and see the whip or
whatever approaching; especially the first time
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|
sarah_ts
|
it has to be with a "certain" person though. it can't just
be anyone
|
|
PAIN_Mstr
|
Yes, well, my slave has always said it's not the pain, it's
YOUR pain that I want
|
|
sarah_ts
|
there must be a reciprocal feeling
|
|
PAIN_Mstr
|
Well, for myself I can say there definitely is
[Though] I guess we should not generalise. some subs think differently
and have different needs
|
|
Alexa^^
|
dina says that she felt it a conflict when she _wasn't_ at
the feet of her Dom, so to speak, it was just there all the time; [and],
yes, it increased when we where 'scening', for want of a better word
|
|
PAIN_Mstr
|
Surely there must be some self-doubt of what they are doing
when they first find themselves submitting
|
|
LordMilz
|
as I say, each individual submissive or slave can only know
that. we can't assume that it is so
for some it may be the most natural thing they have ever felt themselves
doing and there may be no guilt or questioning at all
for some it may be a feeling of "coming home"
|
|
PAIN_Mstr
|
Yes. agreed, LM. [It was] only an assumption on my part. I
guess that I am curious as to their thoughts
|
|
LordMilz
|
as Dominants we want to know what submissive or slave
thought patterns are--it helps us to be better Dominants
|
|
PAIN_Mstr
|
And I am sure many feelings and ideas run through their
minds
|
|
LordMilz
|
yep
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|
Alexa^^
|
folks. we must soon close the meeting. hmmm, and we have gone
into so many topics that I am not sure I can make any kind of summary :)
|
|
LordMilz
|
Well, Alexa. I agree with you. a summary would be difficult
|
|
Alexa^^
|
Feel free to stay but I will close the log by saying thank
you for coming and for all that you have shared here and know that
someone out there who reads this will benefit if only to know they are
not alone...
|