What constitutes a good Dom/me?
02 November 1997
This discussion took place on #SanTara on Sunday,
the 2nd of November 1997
The discussion looks at what characteristics make a good Dom or Domme, and
which of these characteristics are learned and how they are learned.
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Symbols and abbreviations
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:)
:))
<g>
<grin>
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Smiles and grins
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irc
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Internet Relay Chat-- a way of chatting with someone real-time
on the Internet
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rl
r/l
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Real-life
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sub
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Submissive person
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dom/Dom
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Dominant person (usually male)
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Domme
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Dominant female
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24/7
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24 hours per day, seven days a weeek. Ie. full-time
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play-partners
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People who "play" BDSM scenes together
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LTR
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Long-term relationship
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frog
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frogaroo
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Jal/jal
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jenni
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Participants
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Alexa^^
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A Pro Dom (Professional Dominatrix). Owner of dina (a female slave)
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MrEos
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A male Dominant
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jenni
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A female submissive
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Achernar
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A male submissive
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warrigal^
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A male submissive
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fairlady{G}
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A female submissive/slave
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sarah_ts
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Transexual, biologically male (submissive)
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frogaroo
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A male Dominant, "owner" of alycia (a female submissive)
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MrEos
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I nominate Alexa^^ as channel dominator, er... moderator
for the evening
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Alexa^^
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Bows and starts the meeting :)
OK. The topic is domming/topping...
and, yes, this li'l meeting will go on the site [ABIS] and
I have to remind everyone of that before we begin
I am still looking for ideas regarding next fortnight's topic
too, by the way
But tonight: What constitutes a 'good' Dom/me.
Would anyone like to begin?
Points to...
Anyone? We were all so noisy before[the meeting started]!
What would
you think makes a good Dom?
I think at least some practical experience
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MrEos
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A good submissive <grin>
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Alexa^^
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Chuckles
OK. That's one, Eos
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MrEos
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Patience
Self-certainty
Empathy
Arrogance
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jenni
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OK, MrEos. You got a reaction from me:)
i am with
you all the way until you reach arrogance, i think.
that part of what makes a good Dom is someone who
is sufficiently self-confident to be able to admit to *weakness* :)
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MrEos
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I say arrogance because the Dom has to know that he/she is
"above" the sub and can make decisions in his/her best interest
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frogaroo
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yep. arrogance is only desirable if in response to
the sub's need for it.
some subs are really in need of warmth
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Alexa^^
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So it is more an 'appearance' of arrogance rather
than a literal arrogance?
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sarah_ts
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In my dictionary a Dom/Domme needs to be self-confident
and self-assertive.
I find that arrogance is a word used to describe
those who would like to have the aforementioned qualities
but are somewhat lacking
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MrEos
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I want to add [to the list] a desire to see the sub "improve"
in some way
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Alexa^^
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Nods to Eos
I would add a love of the craft
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MrEos
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I agree, Alexa. I see the "craft" as crafting a better
submissive so that, when/if you both part, the sub comes away
better than when he/she started with you
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Alexa^^
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Nods
But I wouldn't limit a love of the craft to the
availability of a sub
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warrigal^
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from my point of view it is that a Dom/me needs
to be able to listen to the sub
to explain: I don't tend to give much verbal feedback
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Alexa^^
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Nods to warrigal
Good point There are lots of ways
to 'listen'
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jenni
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speaking from a strictly sub viewpoint, i also tend
to think it is essential for Dom/mes to be aware of and knowledgeable
about the kind of psychological benefit/harm they can do...
the strong added dimension in D/s
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Alexa^^
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Nods heaps to jal
Would you like to explain that
a bit?
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jenni
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OK, Alexa :)
ummm... too often i see people i suppose
not really thinking through the responsibilities which become
inherent within a D/s relationship...
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jenni
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very prevalent on irc, but also in rl, as, by
the time a sub actually DOES submit, there is usually a rather
large wall [that] has been crossed
or, sometimes, the reasons for a sub actually *subbing*
can be embedded in rather traumatic past experiences, [which] can be
dangerous stuff to open up without the intent to follow through :)
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sarah_ts
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Nods in agreement
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warrigal^
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Nods emphatically to Jal
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MrEos
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I wanted to say something about the responsibility issue
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Every time a Dom/me gives a sub an order he is taking
on responsibility from the sub, taking "choice" from the sub
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frogaroo
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The situation is quite different whether you live
with your sub (24/7) or whether you are dealing with episodic
scenes
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sarah_ts
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Sorry, but I disagree about the difference between
episodic scenes and r/l (24/7).
For me and a lot of people that seek out professional
Mistresses there is no difference;
each episode is just a part of the overall puzzle.
Just as 24/7 doesn't mean every second of the day,
each episode just means the "seconds" are further
apart--the link is always there
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Alexa^^
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ok, well for dina and myself 24/7 is every second
of the day, but I know it mean different things for different
people,
but for me the difference in responsibility, while
not lessened, is different between play-partners and 24/7.
My responsibility, for example, with clients is greater
then that with dina, but only in the sense that because of our
living arrangments she has been 'given back' some of the responsibilities
a 'play' sub would give away
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frogaroo
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Yes, Alexa, I find that living with your loved sub
requires a lot of care in the way you play. You can really f...
up because the bond is SO real.
A *bad* scene could take days to heal. And you'd
have to live with it...
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frogaroo
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But I am very in-experienced with playing with strangers...
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MrEos
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I agree with sarah about the responsibilities.
I don't really "play" scenes, but my email slave and
my r/l non-live-in sub both get the same feeling of responsibilty
from me
because I have control over them and it extends beyond
our times of contact.
So my responsibility is always with me.
The distance and whether we live together doesn't diminish
that.
Playing with someone on and off is different. There
the responsbility is negotiated, like the rest of the scene,
and ends when the scene ends
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sarah_ts
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That's what I meant, Alexa, for any 24/7 relationship
to work
the sub has to assume certain day to day responsibilities,
but is still ultimately submissive.
With now and again scenes, that feeling of being
submissive to the person is still always there, no matter the
time between sessions.
Maybe it is different, but it is still there
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Alexa^^
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OK. I would ask then, subs, what has been the most
important thing a Dom/mme has had to have to make it (session,
etc..) good, and Dom/mmes, what do you think is the most important
thing you needed to learn to be a 'good' Dominant
Anyone?
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jenni
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a knowledge of what they [the Dom/mes] want, and umm... a sense
of humour when appropriate :))
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Achernar
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a general sense of care, of affection, a feeling
that the Dom(me) is enjoying her/himself and yes, a sense of humour.
nothing worse than the feeling that the Dom(me) is
going through the motions and not enjoying it
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warrigal^
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for me it is the ability of a Dom/me to get into
my head,
for them to be able to control me with a word,
to command with a look
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sarah_ts
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Sort of like the others said...
I would like my Domme to understand the gift I want
so much to give,
and for them to want to accept it just as much,
even if it is only for an hour or so
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MrEos
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Wonders if he'll ever learn to control with a look or a
word :( <sigh>
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Alexa^^
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Nods
OK. What about a Dom, Eos?
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MrEos
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No, thanks. I just ate...
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jenni
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Groans quietly...<g>
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Alexa^^
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Well, for me the key has been consistency,
in 24/7 and in shorter scenes
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MrEos
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OK. I think it's important for a Dom to provide a solid
base on which the sub can build their submission.
So the Dom needs to be stable, unchanging and, as Alexa
said, consistent so that the sub can "see" their future submission
ahead of them.
It also needs strength of character and certainty of
the direction being set for the relationship
and a deep desire to see it through, a need within
the Dom himself, if you will
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Achernar
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I just wanted to add to the consistency aspect. As
a sub, I see consistency as important because it's a base for trust,
and trust is really what it all revolves around
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warrigal^
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Nods to Achernar
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Alexa^^
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dina pipes in with a 'she needs to know what's expected
of her' point to add to the consistency thread.
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Alexa^^
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OK. How do Dom/mmes learn their skills? Any ideas?
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MrEos
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There are two main elements that I see...
One is natural aptitude.
The second is knowledge and experience to hone it
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warrigal^
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Agrees with MrEos
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Alexa^^
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Nods to Eos
Care to enlarge on natural aptitude?
Meaning a desire to Dom or presence?
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MrEos
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Yes.
A desire to do so, or else the ability to experience
a deep pleasure when doing so.
I don't know about presence. I don't think I have that
particular attribute so I cannot comment :)
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Alexa^^
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smiles
If its ok, may I ask you frogaroo, how
did you learn your skills as a Top/Dom?
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frogaroo
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I was a sub, of sorts, then discovered that a lover
of mine wanted from me what I had been looking for in a Domme...
...and again...and again...
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MrEos
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On the thread of how one learned to Dom I got it from
theatrical school (surprise)... where I taught (bigger surpsie)...
and had to be able to walk up to any particular adult
and take control instantly--no ifs or buts, when I was present
it had to be me in control.
I learned an enormous amount about being sure, confident
and making what I say THE way
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Alexa^^
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I wanted a surprise :)
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frogaroo
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Actually, for me it is not so much a matter of learned
skills. More of empathy. I think [that] the subs taught me.
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frogaroo
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I'm very much into duality stuff. It's in the head,
more than in attitude.
Subbing is *also* being in control.
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warrigal^
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Nods to frogaroo
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jenni
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MrEos, you just made me make another connection... umm... my
work involves getting other people to accept responsibility,
and take control--basically empowerment stuff... ummm.. Now i will
disappear into a bit of navel-gazing while i work out if that,
in some ways, forms the basis of the way i submit... :)
(in some ways, facilitating Domination from others) phew! i will tie myself
up into knots here if i am not careful :))
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MrEos
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I see many similarities between what I have done in
the past
and what I do in the context of D&s. A lot of it reveals
aptitude, but some things, like the teaching, show where I learned
to dominate.
So I see in my adult life a very active Dominant even
when BDSM is not explicit
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frogaroo
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Jalinari, I started with self-bondage :)) and, yes
Eos, I have noticed :)
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Alexa^^
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Chuckles
OK. Who's up?
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warrigal^
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for me it quite the opposite from MrEos. in my work
I am in control; if I screw up people can die, but in a scene I like
to feel I am out of control.
I like the Domme to have total control of me
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Alexa^^
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OK. For me it has been a balance of learned practical
skills, taught through my own sub times early on, and a natural
evolution so to speak into Dominance that provided 'presence'. There
are some thngs that just can't be taught. Most Dom/mmes I know
have at least tried subbing before topping, and for me it was
how I learned too
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MrEos
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Two things...
Firstly, warrigal, I enjoy playing Dom at work, home
and everywhere. I quite happily take control when offered or
available...
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MrEos
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Also being a Dom with an admitted submissive is just
an extension of that. Most of it seems to come "intuitively"
(ie. from previous experience) for me.
Maybe I'm lucky, but it's something that just "turns
on" for me
(though it undoubtedly could do with some refining)
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warrigal^
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Someone once told me though that the sub really
has the control and
I found that at times she is right because
can't a sub stop a scene at any time?
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Alexa^^
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Smiles
Old saying: people only have as much power
over us as we give them...
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frogaroo
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I agree with warrigal wholeheartedly
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sarah_ts
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I agree with what you said about presence,
and that one doesn't really "learn" how to dominate;
one merely learns the use of the tools and their
application, including verbals;
and yes a sub can stop a scene, but cannot stop someone's
character
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Alexa^^
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Thanks sarah
OK. Next point shall we, primary responsibilities
of a Dom/me
This is of course assuming the Dom/me has a submissive/slave
Anyone?
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sarah_ts
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You mean like safe, sane & consensual?
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MrEos
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Well-being of the submissive, both in scene and, in
LTRs, in the relationship.
Well-being of the Dom himself.
Well-being of the relationship itself
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warrigal^
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also the well-being of the psyche of the sub.
any person can cause damage in a person's mind
and that must be looked out for
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Alexa^^
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Nods
Good point, warrigal
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frogaroo
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Try to make sure that Pain does not become pain
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Alexa^^
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nods to frog
For me it is a holistic approach of mind,
body and spirit; because dina and I do non-consensual scenes, the sane and
safe elements of SS&C are very important
Any other 'responsibilities'?
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warrigal^
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a knowledge of any injuries.
it is up to the sub to make the domme aware of any
disabilities
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MrEos
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Good points, warrigal...
I also feel that a responsibility is that the sub ends
up better (emotionally, intellectually, etc.) as a result of
the Doms "attentions" than
worse. This is in the context of a LTR, though, of course :)
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frogaroo
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Same as Warrigal's comment: SAFETY
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Alexa^^
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OK. So a knowledge of some of anatomy is good
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frogaroo
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For heavy play: YES
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MrEos
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And a knowledge of some psychology for mind play
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Alexa^^
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Nods and agrees..
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Alexa^^
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OK. We usually wrap-up soon, can we get to creating
good scene play and leave switching for next time?
So, I would ask the subs first: what would you say
makes for a creat scene; what elements make it 'great'?
... And the Doms: are there elements that make some scenes
great and some not so?
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Achernar
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In my case, the scenes that have stuck in my mind
as being great have been the ones really involving my emotions,
my head, with a strong element of trust, and genuine submission,
and that came through a good connection with the
Domme
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Alexa^^
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Chuckles
I think so too
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MrEos
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For me it's a good scene when the sub reacts in ways
that show that the buttons that I am trying to push are producing
the reactions that I want to see.
So feedback from the sub is very important. I need to
FEEL that what I am doing is working
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Alexa^^
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Nods to Eos
For me it is a combination of getting
into headspace for me and the sub. With dina though, we just 'click'
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frogaroo
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To me, there is a great aesthetic pleasure in a memorable
scene.
As an artist, I have an approach which is very sensual/visual;
maybe I'm more into Libertinage (a form of anarchy)
than anything
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MrEos
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I agree with frog. When it all clicks it is a beautiful
thing, something that you can feel all through you
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Alexa^^
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I also agree with frog. Most of my memorable scenes are
very visually sensual rather than [just] an 'overt' display
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MrEos
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I scene mostly in the mind. That's where I see the beauty.
I see it in the submission in my sub, in her reactions towards
me and in what I provoke
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Alexa^^
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Nods to Eos
Does anyone have anything to add ?
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frogaroo
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I agree with Eos on the matter of beauty
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Alexa^^
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Smiles
I think [it is] a blend of both visual and psycological
For me overtness has its place; but I do prefer a
more sensual approach
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MrEos
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I can't ties knots so I rely on the psychological :)
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frogaroo
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I suggest scouting and sailing as two good schools :)
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Alexa^^
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(whispers) I will teach you a few knots, Eos :)
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Alexa^^
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Smiles
Thanks for coming everyone.
It's been another good one
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MrEos
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You'll see it on ABIS soon :)
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