Dom-space and sub-space
13 July 1997
This IRC discussion took place on #SanTara on Sunday, the 13th
of July, 1997.
The principal participants were:
- Alexa, a real-life Mistress and her (female) slave dina
- Blkprince, a real-life Master with his (female) slave destiny
- LordMilz, a real-life Dom
- ffairlady, an online submissive
- frogaroo, a real-life Dom and his (female) submissive alycia
- MrEos, a real-life Dom
||virtual-life, life online
||happy smile (sideways)
||happy smile with a wink
<Alexa^^> ok, well. We are here to discuss sub-space and dom-space ...
<Alexa^^> there are so many definitions out there but I feel that it is
the personal definitions that count most
<Blkprince> difficult to define in words ... It's a feeling and a set of
<Alexa^^> tonight's talk will be logged and hopefully opinions and ideas
will be used on the website
* Blkprince ponders as destiny sits beside him asking "How do you know
when you have found it?"
<Alexa^^> one definition I found was interesting and might kick us off
* Blkprince listens
<Alexa^^> 'space' described as the phenomenon within the practice of
BDSM that renders ecstasy beyond orgasm
<Alexa^^> a journey not so much a place ... described by some as
'flying', 'floating'' or just a 'head-space'
<Alexa^^> does any one here want to kick us off tonight?
* Blkprince ponders that definition ... Not always true ... and not
* Alexa^^ opens the floor ...
<Blkprince> No ... flying is a definite thing that has little to do with
<Alexa^^> Bp? Would you like to give us your definition?
<Blkprince> As I said, we are trying to define a set of feelings and a
set of attitudes ...
<Blkprince> in that sense it is very individual and unique
<Alexa^^> the floor is open ...
* LordMilz^ does not dispute that 'flying' *may* be a different thing -
but the definition that Alexa was giving is "described by some as ...
*> Alexa^^ smiles
<LordMilz^> I expect that many people describe it different ways
<Alexa^^> it may be better to focus on the first of the topics: sub
space ... Would anyone care to comment from personal experience?
<Blkprince> Hmmmmmm. Ok, try it this way ...
<Blkprince> When I mention sub-space ... those who have experienced it
give me a word ...
<Blkprince> Soft ... pliant ...?
* ffairlady had an experience a few months back ...
* Blkprince listens to ff
<ffairlady> i am still not sure if it was "subspace" or not but it was a
feeling of warmth, soft, erotic It was a total giving of myself over to
the online master
<ffairlady> it was like a floating ... almost out of body thing ... not
scary ... but wonderfully pleasant
* Blkprince nods at ff ... that is exactly what destiny has been saying
ff ... she isn't sure either
<ffairlady> it was incredible
* Blkprince grins at ff ... Yes
<ffairlady> i talked to a few subs i know online about it
<ffairlady> they all called it subspace
<MrEos> offers the idea that X-space might include an intense feeling of
communing with your partner
* ffairlady nods at MrEos
<ffairlady> the funny thing in all of this was when it happened
* Blkprince finds that sub-space is lonely while in it, but the
closeness comes as you come out of it
<ffairlady> we were not in the middle of a scene ... we were talking and
just beginning to play
<ffairlady> the one thing i regret ... is it was not rl
<ffairlady> it was such a downer for the rest of the day ...
* Blkprince nods at ff ... Yes, destiny has had that experience ... a
word, a look, a touch creates it
<Alexa^^> ffairlady would/could you describe it in terms of an emotional
rather than physical experience or them both combined?
<Blkprince> I think it is BOTH and destiny agrees
<Alexa^^> dina describes it for her as a state of being now ... only the
depth varies ...
<ffairlady> i would say both, but more emotional ... or it was for me as
it was on line ... in real life it would be both i would think
<Alexa^^> for me it means something else again ...
* Blkprince smiles ... destiny agrees with dina ... It is being "here"
<ffairlady> i agree with depth of feeling though ... as i have felt it
since then but not as intense
* Alexa^^ nods to fl
<Blkprince> Depth is one dimension, but what does it mean in
definitional terms ... How deep is deep?
<ffairlady> i have a question for the subs ...?????
<Alexa^^> fl has the floor ...
<ffairlady> do you think it's the closeness or trust you have in the
Master that allows that special space?
<ffairlady> or should i say Master or Mistress
<Alexa^^> dina responds ...
<Alexa^^> without the trust she cannot enter the place ...
<Blkprince> Destiny says a definite "YES" and being comfortable in
letting go of who you are
<Blkprince> Yes trust is central ...
<Blkprince> Destiny describes it as a feeling of entrusting another with
the totality of who you are
<Alexa^^> dina and Alexa agree that for both of us her space is
multi-dimensional and only able to be there at any level due to the
closeness we share and trust level ...
* ffairlady nods
* LordMilz^ has to agree with Alexa - both on space he has witnessed and
has found himself in
<Blkprince> Yes Alexa ... I agree and destiny agrees ... She also says
it is in part LETTING yourself be vulnerable
<Alexa^^> yes, but can a sub enter space without these things?
* Alexa^^ likes dropping these kind of questions ...
* LordMilz^ thinks they can - and it becomes dangerous
<Blkprince> Destiny says ... NO ... not without trust ... and I agree
* Alexa^^ nods to Bp ...
<MrEos> agrees with LM
<Alexa^^> dina describes it as scary but has entered space unwillingly to
some degree in the past without these things ...
<MrEos> When need or hunger is so strong for sub-space that trust
becomes a luxury
<Alexa^^> from my own experiences I have little or no control over 'sub
space' once it has been emotionally triggered.
<Blkprince> Destiny agrees with what dina says ... And yes ... you can
be sub-space hungry!
<Alexa^^> trust or no trust, for me the space it not as warm and fuzzy
as it is primarily for dina.
* Blkprince nods ... No, the sub-space I have been in is not warm and
<ffairlady> how is it different, Alexa?
<ffairlady> see that is my predicament ... was it or was it not
* Alexa^^ hmms ... it is really a personal thing ... but for me to enter
subspace sets off many emotional triggers I would rather not be there
... as well as physical ones.
<ffairlady> i was told by one sub that as it was online it was most
<frogaroo> are you thinking about anxiety, Alexa?
* Blkprince nods ... Yes that is a feature of YOUR sub-space Alexa ...
Mine can be a very dangerous place to be in
<LordMilz^> for me it depends on who I am with
<Alexa^^> yes, I know Bp. I do not mean to generalise.
<Alexa^^> for some it is an entity ... others an emotion, fl ... for
some, like dina, a place of surrender.
<Alexa^^> - > frogaroo ... no it is different again to that ...
<warrigal> for me it is a comfort thing
* Alexa^^ nods to warrigal ... how so warrigal? you don't have to answer
<frogaroo> This feeling of warmth and fuzz reminds me of the description
of a drug induced state. Is sub-space a dependence?
* Alexa^^ looks at her slave and thinks it could be *chuckles*, but no
... not as we see it frogaroo
<Alexa^^> it would be easy to see how it could be though ... I am not
sure ... any comments?
<Alexa^^> would anyone like to approach the discussion point of "how
does one get a sub into subspace?"
<LordMilz^> for some submissives - I expect it can become an addiction -
depending on what it does to them
<frogaroo> for me that transition from real-world to x-space is
<MrEos> ... and for some it can be as simple as being told to kneel
<warrigal> i find i have to focus internally to get there but once i am
there it is easy to stay there
* Alexa^^ nods to Eos ... for dina it can be as simple as how I have her
<frogaroo> I prefer a ritualised -or pre-written device- entry into
<Alexa^^> what about returning from space to the rl? ... fl has
mentioned her 'let down' because of the vl nature of her experience ...
<frogaroo> one has to shed the real-world off. Like before a stage
<Alexa^^> has anyone had difficulty getting their 'heads back?'
<Alexa^^> dina finds it harder to exit deeper levels of space and is
describing it as a 'roller-coaster' for a while ... until she has her
'head back' ...
<warrigal> sometimes it has taken a while for me to come back but for me
time is all i have needed
<Alexa^^> for me the ritual emphasis in is on closure more-so than entry
<frogaroo> This is a good point. Maybe I worry too much about making the
right entry ...
<frogaroo> Ritualizing the climax/exit. I like it!
* LordMilz^ wonders what it feels like to those submissives here when
they are in the middle of space?
<frogaroo> It hurts?
* Alexa^^ smiles
<LordMilz^> ok - if it hurts - what does it feel like coming back from
<LordMilz^> (others should join in)
<Alexa^^> dina describes a trance like state in deeper levels ...
<ffairlady> i agree with dina ...
<Alexa^^> dina says it depends on how you come back ...
<Alexa^^> if dina is left without slow comforting back her mind runs
<frogaroo> alycia says its simple ... because she exits with an
<ffairlady> for me Alexa that was lacking but i think the after-affects
would have been better if i had that
<Alexa^^> she says ... closing the sessions slowly and ritually helps
her get back ...
<Alexa^^> ok ... are there any questions? Any one would like to ask of
this half of the topic before we move on?
<Alexa^^> any comments or opinions ...
<Alexa^^> then lets move to Dom space ... would someone like to start
the ball rolling ... so to speak
<Alexa^^> the first point to clarify I guess would be ... does Dom space
<Blkprince> It is Power ... a feeling of intense power
<Blkprince> Yes, it exists
* LordMilz^ agrees it exists
<Blkprince> I get to it with a good submissive
<Alexa^^> care to define power, Bp?
<Blkprince> She gives me the power
<frogaroo> it exists for me. It's very mental ... cerebral.
<LordMilz^> but again - it is as individual as sub-space
<frogaroo> power only exists in the hands of others
<Blkprince> Yes ... control ... obedience. knowing you can require
anything but don't necessarily do so
<frogaroo> control ...
<MrEos> I am supposed to say something?
<Alexa^^> no I was just wondering if you would like to input ... :)
<MrEos> I mentioned about a sub going into sub-space when I tell her to
kneel ... Well, I go into Dom-space at the same time, as she goes
<frogaroo> Dom-space is surrealist, in part, for me
<MrEos> I become very focussed
* Blkprince nods at MrE and frogaroo
<MrEos> I feel an intense connection
<MrEos> I almost feel what she does
* Blkprince smiles ... i know what is going to happen next
* Alexa^^ nods with Eos ...
<frogaroo> the absurdity and intensity of such space is a wee bit
* Blkprince grins at frogaroo
<Blkprince> Yes ... it is part of the having control ... the power to
make things happen
<Blkprince> I tend to have MORE of it in dom-space than at other times
... But it is always there!
<LordMilz^> you have to be careful though - not to confused "knowing"
with being in dom-space
<LordMilz^> it is possible to have that - and not be in dom-space
<LordMilz^> again - for me - it depends on who I am with
<Blkprince> Not for me ... I have it all the time ...
<LordMilz^> I am talking about how it manifests itself
* Blkprince grins ... I wander around the shopping centre in dom-space
and everyone scatters :)
* Blkprince grins ... and destiny MELTS!
* LordMilz^ does it at work - and wonders why he doesn't have any
friends there ;)
<Alexa^^> to me being in Dom space depends greatly on the scene I am
about to enter ... but it is also, like with dina, a state of being, as
well - though not intrusively so to others ...
<Alexa^^> I agree with Eos's statement that when my slave kneels ... I
seem to enter a space along with her ...
<LordMilz^> yes - I agree with Alexa on that one
<Blkprince> Hmmm, I don't have to have anyone kneel to feel it
* Alexa^^ shakes her head smiling
* Alexa^^ has actually seen this happen, everyone ... some send out
stronger "Dom waves" than others *grins*
<LordMilz^> hrmmmmmm - I speak of the 'kneeling' as an example of an
<frogaroo> posture, regard and speech matter
<Alexa^^> I didn't say that was the only time ... but that it
intensified depending on the scene or day, etc ...
* Blkprince nods at frogaroo ... But are these things NECESSARY?
* Alexa^^ nods yes ...
<LordMilz^> just as there are events that deepen sub-space - there are
also events that deepen dom-space
<frogaroo> ... such as?
<LordMilz^> Alexa gave such an example - again - it is an
<Alexa^^> dina picks up on my Dom-space really well ... she also
triggers it at times ...
<Blkprince> destiny says it is having "presence" ... if you have that,
you can get to dom-space
<ffairlady> do you feel the dom-space with all subs or only special
ones? just curious?
<Blkprince> No , not with all ff ... only with the ones I have
<Alexa^^> because of my work fl ... I have to at time be able to 'get it
up' in crude terms ... though most times it is an instant reaction the
minute I enter a dungeon ...
* LordMilz^ finds that the "triggers" for deepening it only come from
<LordMilz^> it is like you can 'tell' that they know what they are doing
- but at the same time not know
<LordMilz^> if that makes sense
* Alexa^^ nods to LM definitely ... my work is a different feeling to my
own subs ...
* Alexa^^ would like to add that it is almost a natural reaction as much
as a instant one ...
<frogaroo> the temperature is rising :)
* Alexa^^ chuckles ... down frog:)
* Blkprince looks at Alexa with a grin on his face
* Alexa^^ smiles well ...
<Alexa^^> ok ... back to the discussion ... *coughs*
* Blkprince coughs in sympathy
<Alexa^^> ok ... next point being ... can a dom be 'moved into space?
and if so how?
<MrEos> suggests kneeling in front of him
<MrEos> is heavily into kneeling subs
<LordMilz^> in some ways we have been saying that
<Blkprince> Yes I think so ... by the behaviour of an subbie
<Alexa^^> destiny? any ideas??
<Alexa^^> descriptions, destiny? :)
<LordMilz^> certain subs trigger certain responses in certain Dom/mes
<LordMilz^> and vice versa
<Blkprince> Yes, respect. Proper demeanour ...
* LordMilz^ agrees with Bp - on the respect, etc.
* Alexa^^ smiles.
* Blkprince nods ... destiny says by appropriate wriggling, kneeling and
proper forms of address.
* Blkprince notes destiny's wriggling is quite beyond any rational
<frogaroo> I like to go straight into a scene. ie. I *come* to my sub`s
place who awaits me
<frogaroo> I don't knock!
<frogaroo> Her place is also MY place, so I have to go out first :(
* Blkprince grins at frogaroo
<Alexa^^> apart from a sexual side is there a key?
<Alexa^^> dina makes what she calls "mild mischief". Not enough to get
in trouble, but it works
<frogaroo> That's if you're dealing with *correction* Alexa
<LordMilz^> mischief either pisses me off and gets me angry - or I
<frogaroo> subs are not always *bad*
* Blkprince mutters ... dina=mischief!
* Blkprince notes that mischief, deliberate mischief is NOT a good way
to get a dom moving
<frogaroo> no, because it triggers anger. Dangerous stuff.
* Alexa^^ nods to frog ... and chuckles as dina neglects Bp's last
* DrPaynn usually gets very cranky with deliberate mischief
<Alexa^^> there is a line she seems to know how to draw ...
* Blkprince will have words later
<Alexa^^> and there is a correct time for it ... - for us
<Alexa^^> there are ways that it can be dealt with other than correction
... as LM suggested simply to ignore it, etc ...
* Blkprince notes that he is somewhat distracted by a needy slave making
a little mischief here right now
<Alexa^^> but for her it is a signal that she is 'needy' in some area
<LordMilz^> and of course, that can be the mistake in ignoring it
<Alexa^^> and it does trigger my attentions to it ...
* Blkprince agrees with Alexa ... damn right! Constant NEED!
* Alexa^^ nods to LM yes ...
<LordMilz^> finding time to learn that the MISCHIEF equates to NEED is
* Alexa^^ looks to the quiet ones ... would anyone like to comment
around the topic?
<frogaroo> Alycia and I communicate via e-mail (between home and
<frogaroo> This allows for a scenario to get into place
* Blkprince grins at frogaroo ... destiny e-mails me while siting 3 feet
away from me!!!!!
<frogaroo> commands are also very specific
<Blkprince> OK ... question to the subbies ... How do you recognise a
<Alexa^^> any comments as to defining Dom space?
<MrEos> suggests: Dom-space is a state of highly-focussed attention
<frogaroo> agrees with MrEos
* Blkprince doesn't think that is enough for a definition
* Alexa^^ defines it as a state of being that deepens in attentiveness
and of intensity depending on the situation ...
<DrPaynn> focussed almost to the exclusion of everything else
* LordMilz^ does not think either of the 'spaces' is definable - because
it is an individualistic thing
* Blkprince still thinks you have to build in power, control and
<Blkprince> Yes, LM ... I DO agree and so does destiny
<MrEos> Obedience though is not the Dom's domain, but he can react to
* LordMilz^ nods to Bp - when in space I may have power, control and
obedience - or I may not - but it does not define it for me
* Blkprince nods at MrEos ... yes, but without it you can hardly be in
* Alexa^^ nods and agrees with LM ... but ... this discussion has
brought out some different opinions on both topics ... not necessarily
definitions but important information for a newcomer to understand the
<MrEos> Bp, we want the reaction to obedience, not obedience itself
<LordMilz^> and I think you hit on it earlier, Bp - "when I am in the
shopping centre I am in dom-space" - it is very much an attitude or
mind-set - a projection of oneself into the surrounds in some way
<LordMilz^> and each of us do it differently - with different effects on
<MrEos> Just as there as many ways to submit as their are submissives,
so is it with Dom/mes and domination
* Blkprince grins at LM ... yes
<Alexa^^> good, then that in itself is a definition of sorts ... :)
<Alexa^^> well, everyone ...
<Alexa^^> that brings this session to a close ...
<MrEos> wishes to point out that this is likely to appear, in some form
or other, on the website
* ffairlady smiles
<Alexa^^> thank you all for joining us ...
<Alexa^^> this info will be edited by Eos ... and anything useful will
be on the website soon :)
* Alexa^^ draws this meeting for the log ... to a close ...